tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31432976.post6165091028014934610..comments2023-08-10T07:41:11.827-07:00Comments on Bajillion: What About The Victim?!?Tommaso Sciortinohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13682166317937996902noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31432976.post-75918599262269617542007-04-21T22:12:00.000-07:002007-04-21T22:12:00.000-07:00Well, whenever I use the argument that abortifacie...Well, whenever I use the argument that abortifacient pills are dangerous for women or that abortion is a dangerous medical procedure, it is based on the purported values or priorities or criteria of the person I'm trying to persuade. I make no secret of the fact that I think life begins at conception, so when I argue from pro-abortion-on-demand suppositions, I am merely expecting people in favor of allowing abortion to be consistent.nedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18116991265170710379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31432976.post-67774581495851887812007-04-21T17:45:00.000-07:002007-04-21T17:45:00.000-07:00I think it's also worth emphasizing that the pro-l...I think it's also worth emphasizing that the pro-life movement as a whole does not take your nuanced view of life. The National Right to Life Committee, for instance, maintains that "The baby living in her mother is as distinct and unique a new person/human being as you are from me, and as deserving of protection under the law as we are."Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510253316398518908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31432976.post-17404548563898347092007-04-21T16:36:00.000-07:002007-04-21T16:36:00.000-07:00I think you're right about the motivations of pro-...I think you're right about the motivations of pro-lifers, Rebecca. I think the belief about life beginning at conception <I>is</I> genuine in the sense that people really do believe it to be the case. I just think they don't think the implications of that belief all the way through.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510253316398518908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31432976.post-18055630859206350442007-04-21T12:18:00.000-07:002007-04-21T12:18:00.000-07:00Then what do you think pro-lifers' real motivation...Then what do you think pro-lifers' real motivation actually is?<BR/><BR/>I think it's a combination of prejudice against the type of women who stereotypically get abortions, a belief that women as a gender aren't equipped to make their own decisions, and, in no small part, a very genuine belief that human life begins at fertilization.<BR/><BR/>I don't think it's inconsistent for pro-lifers to not face the logical conclusions of their "fetuses are people!" stance. Except for the most extreme fundies, even pro-lifers probably subconsciously recognize that fetuses, ya know, aren't the same as born people in their ability to comprehend their surroundings and feel pain, so they have to also subconsciously concede that abortion isn't the same as murder. They're also constricted by legal and social definitions of murder and life.<BR/><BR/>I'm quick to defend pro-lifers' motivations because, somewhat similarly, I feel it's immoral to kill animals for food. I know that, legally, killing a cow isn't murder; and I recognize that, cognitively, cows aren't the same as humans. Further, I'm constricted by a society that treats killing animals like harvesting wheat. (Abortion isn't treated with the same indifference.) Thus, as much as I genuinely believe that animals have the ability to feel pain and experience suffering, it's not logical to punish meat eaters as if they were murderers.Rebecca C. Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04266179966692604794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31432976.post-24425057874586660452007-04-20T23:28:00.000-07:002007-04-20T23:28:00.000-07:00There's no general rule to the effect that lying t...There's no general rule to the effect that lying to promote your agenda makes you more heroic, or even <I>seem</I> more heroic. If anything, I'd say the general effect is to make you seem desperate. Really, how you frame the lying is a function of your sympathy for the underlying agenda, but by-and-large heroes don't lie when honesty will get the job done.<BR/><BR/>The point wasn't about lying, though, it was about inconsistency, which probably has more to do with people not thinking through their moral assumptions. I don't really think there's much outright lying going on, I think there's a lot of moral confusion. I think pro-lifers and <I>think</I> they think fetuses are people, but wouldn't accept all the consequences of that belief if you pushed them on it.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510253316398518908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31432976.post-64504997324138075642007-04-20T22:29:00.000-07:002007-04-20T22:29:00.000-07:00So an abortion to save the life of the mother is o...So an abortion to save the life of the mother is okay even for a pro-lifer because it's killing in self defense, is that correct? For the mother, at least. But still immoral for a doctor, right? Hippocratic oath, "playing God," whatever.<BR/><BR/>Anyhow, you're right ... but if they do think that fetuses have moral rights (the right to life being the most pressing), then isn't dishonesty ... justified? Wouldn't you lie to save a life? <BR/><BR/>Somebody who says anything to get what he's after is like an action movie villain, unless what he's after is saving lives, in which case he's an action movie hero. You're accidentally accusing pro-lifers of being John McClane instead of Hans Gruber. Whoops!Zackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02099926117524402770noreply@blogger.com